Academician Alexander Zapesotsky told how Soviet myths led the USSR to its heyday

HELP “MK”

Alexander Sergeevich Zapesotsky is a corresponding member of the Russian Academy of Sciences, an academician of the Russian Academy of Education and two Western European academies of sciences, and also an honorary doctor of 5 universities west of Russia (from Belarus to the USA).

— Alexander Sergeevich, why do you think there was a big fuss around Garbuzov’s article “On the lost illusions of a passing era”? Was everyone so confused by the words about “utopian ideas and myths purposefully disseminated among the masses”?

— I will express my personal opinion. It is impossible to imagine that the head of the Institute of the USA and Canada, who has a decent biography and a number of serious scientific works, sought to become the hero of a public scandal. But if you didn’t try, then I believe that this article is a double failure of Valery Garbuzov – both journalistic and scientific.

Judge for yourself: what kind of publicist is this if he has to publish a second article in order to explain what he wanted to say in the first? Moreover, in the title of the second article, evaluate the first as “empty space”?

The reaction of some TV channels was predictably aggressive. At times it looked like defamation of the opponent, which was upsetting. Of course, it’s easier to do ratings this way. But public life from this becomes saturated with anger, and everyday culture declines catastrophically. And yet it should be recognized that the corresponding member of the RAS himself descended to the level of his critics. Moreover, perhaps unwittingly, he provoked a public conflict.

Well, what did the author want when he wrote: “Today, in the atmosphere of pseudo-patriotic madness that has gripped the population of Russia, which regularly listens to “old songs about the main thing,” and who, with amazing ease, naively and thoughtlessly, perceives the theses of total state propaganda, new myths are being created, and with them is a modern utopian consciousness being formed? Did you expect applause? For greater effect, the author added that “anti-Western sentiments are a very dangerous disease”! And this should be applauded? But anti-Western sentiments are sweeping people all over the world today. It seems that only Western poll organizers and Valery Garbuzov do not see this.

“He explains that he is simply debunking old Soviet myths… We cannot deny that they did not exist.”

— Journalist Georgy Bovt, by the way, a candidate of historical sciences, defending V.N. Garbuzov, argues that “the theses of a brave man have the right to exist within the framework of a scientific discussion.”

I’m not convinced that they do. In principle, myths are the subject of professional interests of cultural scientists and philosophers. Journalists often contrast myths with facts. Moreover, with evaluative accents (they say, myths are bad, but facts are good). But both are not always true. For example, Academician Likhachev, a scientist of the highest class, said in our conversations that every country striving upward must select the best that it had to write its history. Select the best facts. And to promote heroic deeds, exploits, the greatest achievements of the human spirit.

V.N. Garbuzov attributes myth-making exclusively to totalitarian regimes. Moreover, he unreasonably reproaches famous personalities for trying to fool the people in order to retain personal power. But in fact, no nation building is possible without the conscious and purposeful cultivation of myths. This is part of the responsibilities of any government. By the way, the “democratic” West provides many examples of this.

— There are political scientists who noted Garbuzov’s article as brave, they say, the man decided to say what others say only in their kitchens, and suffered for it.

— Conversations in the kitchen are not a scientific genre. I had the opportunity to act as editor of the annual International Likhachev Scientific Readings, which we started with Likhachev himself in 1993. And we still carry them out, dedicating them to global development. This made it possible to study over 4,000 reports by scientists and thinkers from 56 countries. I will definitely say that I have not come across anything that seriously confirms V.N. Garbuzov’s theses.

Two-thirds of Valery Nikolaevich’s article is devoted to Russia. Well, where are the harmful myths, where are the myths he refuted? Unfulfilled dreams and erroneous forecasts are declared mythology. Ah, the world revolution did not take place… Is this Corresponding Member of the Russian Academy of Sciences Garbuzov talking about China, the Arab world, Africa, Latin America? Oh oh! How to look.

Has socialism failed? But I was making films in Canada in the late 80s and lecturing recently. Is there no socialism there at all? But, for example, in Montreal there are free district cultural centers that were once spotted in Russia. And the social programs are huge. But Obama’s medical program for migrants, and government regulation in the USA, are not from the USSR? And so on.

The vast majority of myths created by the Bolsheviks in the USSR inspired millions of people and led the country to a fantastic rise. Russia, which was widely illiterate, has become the most literate in the world. Industrialization, a breakthrough into space, victory in a terrible war, the greatest achievements in science, art, culture – everything began with myths, everything was programmed by them.

— The figure in the article reflecting the number of countries supporting the United States seemed strange to me: 70 percent. What do you think about it?

— In my perception, the entire article has little factual or conceptual basis. More like a burst of emotion.

…In 1943, the Comintern was liquidated, historian Garbuzov tells us. Is it really the collapse of the utopians? Tell this to our Chinese comrades. But what does teacher Garbuzov not know that in the same 1943, I.V. Stalin decided to create the Academy of Pedagogical Sciences of Russia, which contributed to the unprecedented rise of domestic education? The fading wave of Stalinist reform moved our education forward almost until the collapse of the USSR. Is this all an invention of the authorities? Or, while studying at the Herzen Institute as a graduate student, did Valery Nikolaevich miss something?

A third of the article by the director of the Institute of the USA and Canada is devoted to the “unattainable” power of the main country in the world. However, world-class scientists doubted the prospects of the American model of capitalism more than 20 years ago. And China’s advantage in terms of pace and (most importantly!) development mechanisms also attracted the West’s interest more than 20 years ago.

Academician Glazyev noted at our Readings a long time ago that the United States retained the remnants of its former power due to the unscrupulous use of the Bretton Woods system, the maintenance of a huge army (with war costs equal to the military budgets of the rest of the world) and the global monopoly that emerged in other times in media field. As a model of capitalism, the United States is hopelessly outdated and has lost its effectiveness. I’m afraid it won’t be possible to argue with this.

Now even children know that the United States is the largest debtor on the planet (over $32 trillion). And all remnants of former power are preserved at the expense of others. Not power in essence, but a myth that becomes the past. And where is the analysis of the Institute of the USA and Canada?

— What, in your opinion, can domestic science expect from the Institute of the USA and Canada?

— Such tasks are set by the state. I can only speak as a private person. Why not, say, Valery Nikolayevich share his thoughts on the correspondence with the facts of such American myths as “the benefits of a lifestyle”, “freedom of speech”, “racial equality”, “democracy”, “human rights”, “independence of the courts”, “ the sacredness of private property”? It would be interesting to know his opinion about the quality of the country’s political elite.

The institute, in the rank of director of which V.N. Garbuzov wrote his article, has existed for more than a decade. How I would like to see a complete and true history of the United States created in it. I’m afraid this is impossible. To write it, we must admit that this country was built on blood and savage cruelty. How many bison were killed (according to some sources – 100 million), how many Indians (more than 7 million) were exterminated? To say that true US independence began with a blatant provocation – white settlers staged the Boston Tea Party, disguised as Indians.

And then – the darkness of lies and atrocities. The notorious test tube of Colin Powell at the UN (the reason for the war in Iraq) did not appear out of nowhere. Before this, there was a fake “attack” on the American destroyer Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin (1964, a pretext for an attack on Vietnam), and a murky story with the beginning of the American-Spanish War of 1898, when the Spaniards allegedly blew up the American ship Maine. . More than 100 dead. True, it later turned out that the prudent Americans evacuated the entire officer corps from it. In the true history of the United States, some count as many as 700 wars and armed conflicts. You may not agree with this figure. But in any case, “honesty” and “peacefulness” are simply unique for the short history.

I won’t hide the fact that when I came to the USA for the first time 30 years ago, I fell in love with this country. Taking into account what was happening in Russia at that time, I recalled the lines from the song “I don’t know another country like this, where a person breathes so freely.”

A lot has changed since then. But it seems that Valery Nikolaevich has an unchanged picture of bygone days imprinted in his mind. I don’t wish anything bad for the United States. Let them prosper. But, alas, this great country is not just in a deep crisis, but is actually sliding into the abyss. In this, the long-standing forecasts of Soviet communists came true.

So why shouldn’t the Institute of the USA and Canada analyze the situation and suggest to Americans how to overcome the crisis – for the benefit of the whole world? True, the Americans themselves would not have done this. Academician Bogomolov told how during the Yeltsin era the US State Department prohibited its citizens – Nobel laureates in economics – from helping Russia with practical advice.

I would like to note that today in Russia helping the United States is something that our state encourages financially. The salaries of employees of state scientific institutes are directly related to the number of scientific articles accepted for publication in Western journals. True, strange Americans only accept laudatory articles from our compatriots. I can’t explain why.

But perhaps this clarifies the appearance of such a controversial text by V.N. Garbuzov in Nezavisimaya Gazeta. What if he accidentally confused “Nezavisimaya” with “The New York Times” when sending an article?..